**BEWARE** COMPLETE AAR Cuda numbers, title etc for sale

[6Pack70]

The way i see it, a motor vehicle that has a VIN that has been changed into another motor vehicle is a re-body. I vehicle that was rebuilt from parts of another vehicle, and or new parts isn't a re-body. When your new or newer vehicle is wrecked, it gets repaired. New, used, aftermarket parts are used to repair it. 

Newer cars do get rebuilt with front/rear clips and large sections of donor vehicles and even complete main bodies, depending on the insurance and state regs it may or may not end up with a salvage title. On old cars the question is when it becomes a rebody vs a rebuild - how much of the original body needs to be left?

From the looks of things nowadays.... not much of the original body needs to be left.  And guess what, to many people, it's acceptable.... as long as the original vehicle existed and vin numbers and tags (and sometimes even more items) are still in perfect condition to prove it.

[worthywads]

No response from my original hypothetical from those saying this car in an envelope is a legit restorable car.

Again, I have clean mostly rust free 70 Barracuda 318.  Decide to make a AAR tribute with all the right parts, block, heads, etc but all 318 VIN stampings are intact.  It's worth way less than the real deal.  Experts can't tell this wasn't an AAR except the glaring 318 VIN.

I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope.

I buy and carefully replace the stampings and tags and VIN.  No created car but we just lost real legitimate tribute that isn't built to deceive.

Some of you are saying this is legit and a great car was saved and it should be sold as a legit AAR so long as you didn't fake any numbers right?

@Brads70 , @anlauto @torredcuda @6Pack70 Is this not what you are saying is legit.

Why stop there, stamping the block to match seems the next place to make it even greater.  Is it even against the law to re-stamp a block?

[Marty]

 

[6Pack70]

No response from my original hypothetical from those saying this car in an envelope is a legit restorable car.

Again, I have clean mostly rust free 70 Barracuda 318.  Decide to make a AAR tribute with all the right parts, block, heads, etc but all 318 VIN stampings are intact.  It's worth way less than the real deal.  Experts can't tell this wasn't an AAR except the glaring 318 VIN.

I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope.

I buy and carefully replace the stampings and tags and VIN.  No created car but we just lost real legitimate tribute that isn't built to deceive.

Some of you are saying this is legit and a great car was saved and it should be sold as a legit AAR so long as you didn't fake any numbers right?

@Brads70 , @anlauto @torredcuda @6Pack70 Is this not what you are saying is legit.

Why stop there, stamping the block to match seems the next place to make it even greater.  Is it even against the law to re-stamp a block?

First of all give people a chance to answer dude....i have a job and work long hours too. Boy, thank goodness we're only talking hypothetically.... thats a pretty unique situation considering you ( hypothetically) were willing to build and run somebody's rare and expensive T/A engine in your tribute car.   And what incredible luck one would have to score these tags when their tribute is B5 blue, a 4 speed car with the large radiator opening, tourque boxes and blue interior to boot!  Hightly unlikely someone who builds a tribute car would even consider spending another 7 grand for tags and another 25 grand to really modify the body to look fully legit and undetectable.   Regardless,  its up to the new owner of those tags what he or she creates with them.  The right people in this hobby already know the full vin so it wouldn't be easy to pass off down the road as a rust free original.... if the buyer does his due diligence  and checks it out properly or with professional assistance. 

[Brads70]

No response from my original hypothetical from those saying this car in an envelope is a legit restorable car.

Again, I have clean mostly rust free 70 Barracuda 318.  Decide to make a AAR tribute with all the right parts, block, heads, etc but all 318 VIN stampings are intact.  It's worth way less than the real deal.  Experts can't tell this wasn't an AAR except the glaring 318 VIN.

I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope.

I buy and carefully replace the stampings and tags and VIN.  No created car but we just lost real legitimate tribute that isn't built to deceive.

Some of you are saying this is legit and a great car was saved and it should be sold as a legit AAR so long as you didn't fake any numbers right?

@Brads70 , @anlauto @torredcuda @6Pack70 Is this not what you are saying is legit.

Why stop there, stamping the block to match seems the next place to make it even greater.  Is it even against the law to re-stamp a block?

I guess the real question your asking is what is the definition of legit?  Not an easy one to define as there are many/various opinions .
With this mentioned AAR are you moving the tags on another body shell or are you replacing the metal under the tags ?  So for those who say no this is not "legit" then the question arises , how much replacement parts can be used to repair a car  before it becomes  illegitimate?  and again who gets to decide this? What defines " original" . Like I said you replace a light bulb and to some it's not original anymore?  Take Dave Waldens Challenger, its beautiful but it's not original anymore as its been restored. After 50 years has gone by the chances of any of these cars being " original" is pretty slim.
Me, personally, if I wanted to buy an AAR and this one was done nice  and I was happy with the asking price sure it wouldn't bother me at all. I'd be happy to drive it. But that's just me and one opinion....
To me serial numbers are put on products  just there to prove ownership and so the various governments can charge you taxes.

[anlauto]

Everybody has a different opinion on this matter as far as legitimacy goes, you'll have to decide for yourself what you're comfortable with. One could say "yea go for it" while others say it's fraud and you should be arrested for even thinking about it.

It's always been one of those chicken/egg questions....

[6Pack70]

Every day I wake up and I know I can see pretty good.  However before I get in my car and drive to work, I put my glasses on.... in an effort to prevent a problem with my driving or avoid having an accident.  Due diligence.  After 50 years,  people need to do their part in everything they do to make sure they know they know what they are looking at.  There's literally a ton of information in books and the internet on how cars are restored and what lengths people will go to in order to bring them back to life.   Decide what type of car you want, decide what conidition you want it in, and decide if your bank account supports what you want.  Then..... do your homework!  Ask for help, read, learn.  Then go shopping armed with knowledge.    People who do not practice this are just asking to get screwed by others.   Dishonest people will never ever disappear.   If you as a buyer do not see honesty and transparency from a seller..... play it safe keep moving.    Again, I could care less what enthusiasts do with their cars and I see no harm in replacing every piece of steel on a car.... as long as the vin and fender tag numbers are real and not tampered with. As a builder, be honest abput what you built and why you built it in the first place.   I cant say it enough,  not all cars are rebuilt in an effort to decieve.   Some really incredible cars are rebuilt with tons of new metal from AMD and structural units from other clean cars out of necessity.   
As far as going ahead and stamping blocks and transmissions.... good luck.  Thats a whole different topic and many people with and without help can spot new stampings.  The most valuable tool a shopper carries is the cell phone in his pocket. Lots of info right at your fingertips when looking at a car. 

Do I think this fella should be asking 7 grand for a title, a dash tag and 2 fender tags..... ummm NO.  Now if he had the entire rotted or wrecked body with things still intact, a buildsheet, and matching numbers block... maybe.

[torredcuda]

Like Brad and I have said it really comes down to where do you draw the line as to what is a salvageable restoration and what is a rebody. I agree it would be better to have the whole car no matter how rusted, parted out it was but if you just end up scrapping 90% of it anyway what`s the difference? As far as restamping engines and transmissions the dealers were actually instructed to do that when replacing with warranty blocks so if that was legal/OK is it fraud for someone restoring a car to do it? The only reason vin numbers ae on vehicle are to identify them for registration, insurance and theft.

[torredcuda]

"I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope."

If you added those numbers to your clone you would make it worth more but you also are spending $7000 plus thousands more to weld them in.

[worthywads]

"I now have the opportunity to buy this guys VIN stampings for $7000, I could even ask him to just cut out and send the smaller stampings not the bigger chunks of extra rusty metal surrounding the stamps, why send the dash, so it fits into an envelope."

If you added those numbers to your clone you would make it worth more but you also are spending $7000 plus thousands more to weld them in.

So it would be worth more to you even if you know it's really just transferred numbers?   Would you tell people what was done if I told you I transferred numbers and sold it to you?

If I didn't tell you and you paid top dollar and then I told you would you feel cheated?

[6Pack70]

Some of these Mopars are so valuable that I'd be scared to drive and enjoy them. I would do a thorogh inspection on the car to see what I'm actually getting first of all.  If you told me you moved the numbers and it looked like you did a really nice job building an accurate representation of a car that really did exist.... I would buy that car from you.... and if it was priced accordingly, I would drive and enjoy it and not be afraid of using it in traffic.  If you wouldnt allow me to inspect the car before purchasing, I would walk away. 
If you sold me the car and you told me after that you moved numbers, I would still enjoy the car and spread the word about you holding back information. That's the nicest thing I would do.  This is all provided I didnt pay the same money as an original sheetmetal car.  Some people want a nice Cuda and could care less about all the numbers stuff.

[6Pack70]

There are guys out there that move original body stampings to different body panels so well that it should be considered a work of art. You will not be able to tell....not even when or if the car has to return to a bare metal state.   If you can do work like that, then I would buy your car from you.  Show me the hard stuff...and original buildsheet, the vin tag, the original fender tag...the block stampings.... thats the stuff that is way harder to decieve people with these items in my opinion.  Body stampings...whatever.  One good crash and sometimes both of those are history.

[anlauto]

  It depends on the quality of the work....If it was done correctly, the number swap should be undetectable....if that's the case, reguardless of if you told me or not, I would be happy with the purchase if it past my personal inspection  and I thought I was getting a good value for the asking price.
I would be upset if I paid someone else to look at the car, and if they did not find obvious signs of a rebody (numbers double stamped, pieces crudely welded in etc...)....but I did notice after I received the car. Then I have someone to blame.

Reguardless of any previous knowledge of the car, if I look at it, and I like what I see, and I buy it....then only I'm to blame.

It's been said earlier in this thread....nowadays, the onus is on the buyer period.   

[RUNCHARGER]

Funny how things go sideways. A previous friend renumbered a couple of cars, did it right and said if he ever sold them he would let the buyers know. Another previous friend did at least one car that way as well.
So I see 3 of these cars and casually mention to the new owners that the cars had really good California bodies on them in the renumbering process. Well, all these owners freaked out because it was news to them. I'm a real A-hole for speaking the truth, the rebodied car owners dislike me, the friends are now ex-friends. I sleep good at night though as my ex-friends said they were going to be upfront with any buyers and I meant no ill-will.
Just saying, that this will probably happen down the road. It all starts out just peachy though. If it's no big deal then why do sellers hide the info and buyers get into a snit when the work is discovered? Are things so terrible driving a 318 car with a HP engine swapped in and some musclecar graphics on the side? Why the need to change the 318 VIN to something else, what exactly are you hoping to gain?

[worthywads]

Some of these Mopars are so valuable that I'd be scared to drive and enjoy them. I would do a thorogh inspection on the car to see what I'm actually getting first of all.  If you told me you moved the numbers and it looked like you did a really nice job building an accurate representation of a car that really did exist.... I would buy that car from you.... and if it was priced accordingly, I would drive and enjoy it and not be afraid of using it in traffic.  If you wouldnt allow me to inspect the car before purchasing, I would walk away. 
If you sold me the car and you told me after that you moved numbers, I would still enjoy the car and spread the word about you holding back information. That's the nicest thing I would do.  This is all provided I didnt pay the same money as an original sheetmetal car.  Some people want a nice Cuda and could care less about all the numbers stuff.

I was saying you paid full real deal price and then I told you with evidence that it was a rebody.  For those with the opinion that it's ok to move numbers why would you spread the word on me, the information shouldn't change anything if I did great work and you had to be told.

This is what I'm hearing is ok, by anyone saying this is a restorable car.