Using C-Body spindles on an E-Body ( and A-Body LCA's & Viper calipers)

[Brads70]

( This thread is a copy, from our old site)

I'm going to modify C-Body spindles to fit on my 1970 Challenger and the stock lower E-Body ball joint.  Why, your asking? The C-body uses a thicker rotor that matches perfectly to what the Viper caliper was designed for( so I don't need to install spacers behind the pads), and I can't stand how horribly the car handles now! My 2005 Suburban out handles and out brakes my beloved Challenger , and that just WON'T do!
I'm wanting my upper control arms to be at a 10 degree angle for the ride height I have chosen,( ball joint higher than the mounts).To lower the roll centers which should make the car handle better( along with a few other improvements I'll be making). Now my upper control arms are level which in my opinion makes the front roll center to high. I'll be using Hotchkis upper control arms, front and rear sway bars and Bilstein RCD shocks. On the Hotchkis upper control arms I have installed Howe ball joints that are 1/2" taller than stock.
The years for the spindles to use are either 1974-1978 or 1973 which is a one year only deal. Both of these spindles can be made to work by slightly slotting the lower ball joint mounting holes on a milling machine. I have both spindles to chose from. I'm going to use the 1973 spindle because it uses the same  upper ball joint as the e-body and is slightly taller. The 74-78 spindle uses a bigger upper ball joint .
Both C-Body spindles have the pin raised 5/8" which lowers/drops the car 5/8" as compared to the E-Body spindle.
Here is a picture of a 73 E-Body spindle and a 73 C-Body spindle, note the C-Body is taller. The 73 E-Body spindle has the caliper bracket for the "big rotor" set up. I'm going to make a mount to use the Viper calipers on the C-Body spindle..

[Brads70]

Stock ball joint beside taller Howe ball joint....

Hotchkis upper control arm, stock ball joint on top , Howe on bottom....

Viper calipers....

Custom stainless braided brake lines for Viper calipers( by Goodridge)...

[Brads70]

The KPI on the e-body spindle I measured at 5 degrees, on the C-Body I measured it at 7.5 Degrees. To measure it I mounted the spindle pin in the lathe and then used a precision bevel protractor and measured the machined flat surface on the top of the spindle.
I plan on using A-Body lower control arm as they are 3/16" longer than E-Body .

I would think ( but am not positive) that the adjust-ability of the Hotchkis upper control arm would allow the camber setting with pretty much any spindle. One thing to watch when you install the Hotchkis upper is to cycle it through up and down before you attach it to the spindle to make sure it hits the rubber stopper. I found it it hit the frame rail in one spot before it hit the rubber bumper. Not a big deal 2 seconds with a carbide burr and it was fixed. It hit under the new pivot that they give you to lower the one side. With the taller spindle I'm not sure if it would ever hit the rubber anyhow, but better safe than sorry!

I used grease-able LCA pins and poly bushings from firm feel. Thought someone might like to see a picture of them? I machined a grease groove 360 degrees so the grease gets into all the "splines" of the bushing. I installed them into the A-Body LCA's today, still waiting on rotors. They are at my in-laws in PA , heading down next month so I'll pick them up then. Sort of stuck without them. I made my own adjustable strut rods too.

[Brads70]

I had to scrap the gold part of the adjustable strut rod. It didn't quite fit in the hole in the K-frame! 
So I made new ones today. Not a big deal. I got them mocked up in position along with the sway bar tabs, A-Body LCA's, and the Hotchkis sway bars. Everything looks great,  boy is the Hotchkis sway bar huge! Now to weld in the sway bar tabs on the LCA's :biggrin:

[Brads70]

Got some more done this weekend. Without the sway bar attached I can get 9" of travel, bump stop to bump stop. ( I don't think I'll ever be into the stops for the upper control arms.) More than enough! I wonder what stock is?
The adjustable strut rods sure work sweet! I adjusted them till the bushing sat square on the pin then locked them in position. Moves up and down real nice! I had to clear the Hotchkis front pivot as the upper hit when I lifted it up to hit the bump stops. I doubt the stock E-Body spindle would have this issue, but I'd check it anyhow? I adjusted it so I have both positive and negative camber so I'm now sure it will all work! I don't think you could do this with stock or non-adjustable uppers. Also I don't think you could run the A-Body LCA's without an adjustable rod end strut rod either? The hole for the strut rod is 3/8" out farther than and E-Body LCA along with being 3/16" longer. Now that I have the drives side all figured out and installed, I'll move over to the other side. Can't do much more without a rotor which I'll pick up next month.

[Brads70]

I had to get a new adapter for my caster camber gauge as mine had a magnetic adapter for rotors. FYI a Ford Pinto shares the same spindle thread as a Mopar 3/4-16" http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=138&catid=5

I still have to set the car at the right ride height to start setting up caster camber.


Another bit of info is with A-Body LCA's . I noticed when trying the caster/camber gauge out that the spindle didn't have the same turning radius as the E-Body ( B-Body too I would guess?) When I took a closer look to figure out why I discovered the difference is in the LCA not the ball joint as both A-Body and E-Body use the same lower ball joint. This picture is of a drivers side E-Body LCA ( dirty one) and a passenger side A-Body LCA. Notice the area where the ball joint/steering arm stop contacts the LCA. The A-Body LCA sticks up about 7/16" as compared to the E-Body LCA. Also notice that the strut rod and shock is in a slightly different position. Something to watch out for at a swap meet with a bunch of LCA's in a pile.
I'm going to machine down the stop on the ball joint 7/16" as I already have the LCA all painted.

[Brads70]

Well I got my C-Body rotors this past weekend. I mocked up a wheel ,spindle,and Viper brake caliper to get an idea of how I'll mate the caliper to the spindle. I think I have it all figured out. Viper caliper is going to be tight but doable. Gonna swap the spindles left to right to mount the calipers. . Just gotta decide on aluminum or steel for the mounts? If aluminum I have material lying around if steel I gotta order some. Hopefully the chips will be flying tomorrow! :grinyes:

[Brads70]

Couldn't wait till tomorrow! Aluminum it is! Chips are flying and the garage is a mess but hey that's progress! Got a good start on it tonight hopefully get a good chunk of them machined or finished tomorrow! Classic rock tunes cranked temperature was perfect (a little cool) had a great time whittling away!

[Brads70]

Got one side all whittled out. Now I just gotta assemble it all and check clearances before I finish up the other side. The Viper caliper dosen't have much clearance to play with. About an 1/8" on my rims. Sure wish I had a CNC machine in my garage. Takes awhile manually.

[Brads70]

   They fit! Viper Calipers on a 15" rim ARE a tight squeeze , but I figured that. Love it when a plan comes through!

[Brads70]

Got some time today to paint and final assemble some things. Gotta install the fast ratio arms and center link. Weird thing about the pitman arm from firm feel, it has no "master splines" to locate it properly? I held it up to the old pitman arm to locate were the master/locating splines would be and scribed the 4 positions. I'll just have to pay attention when I install them.
Good news that the Viper calipers fit like a glove and do not hit anything  turning and when the suspension is cycled up and down!  :2thumbs:   It's gonna take some time to set up the alignment as I'm new at it. The fact that you have to disassemble the upper a-arms to make adjustments is a temperary pain in the butt.

[Brads70]

Well the warm weather is here and I'm REALLY itching to drive this thing and see how much it's improved handling and braking wise. I have the car blocked up at ride height. I removed the Howe + 1/2" ball joint and installed the stock length as it caused too much camber gain. I set the ball joint at 3/4" above in the piviot points on the chassis ( took an average of the 2 heights , front is still about 3/8" higher than the rear even with the Hotchkis relocated arm.) Why 3/4? That's what I'm guessing the front end lifts when I get on the throttle while I'm driving. I don't want the ball joint going below center while " normal " driving. I set up a bump steer gauge of sorts, it's not the prettiest set up but it works. So with the stock tie rods the drivers side wheel when I go up on the wheel 3" toes out a total of .274" :scared:  and that's just one wheel so times 2 that .550" TOE OUT  in 3" of travel. I didn't bother going down! What's the use! :lol:  No wonder this think was like a dump truck going around corners!
To fix this I have on order this set up from Howe, should be here in a couple of days. I ordered a 11/16 housing instead of 5/8" Stock car racers just heat up and bend the steering arm to fix this but I'm not doing that for the street!  Unless I have no other way?
http://howeracing.com/index.php/store/steering/howe-quick-bump-tie-rod-ends/tie-rod-quick-bump-5-8-18-rh3-25-w-shoulder-stud.html

[Brads70]

Just one of the Howe tie rods came in!  :banghead:  I want to drive this old buggy darn it! I just had time today to machine the ball joint ,assemble and try the bump steer gauge again. Just the way I threw it together got the bump steer down to .110"    I didn't have time to do any adjusting.  I'll have to weld on a threaded tube on the bottom of the steering arm to add some support as the folks at Howe suggested. I sure love the quality of Howe stuff! Moves like ball bearings! :2thumbs:

[Brads70]

Well I'm all done.I FINALLY have all the parts now.
I found the best centerlink to use is the 66-70 B-body. It gave me at worst .056" of bumpsteer in 3" up upward wheel travel. When I started I had about 9/16"( .550") of bumpsteer with the C-Body spindles and A-Body LCA's! The e-body centerlink was not all that bad  so I wouldn't go to great lenghts to get a B-Body centerlink if your wanting to clone my set up. I ended up using 11/16 Howe tie rods with the 5/8" threaded stud for adjustments. I had to weld suports/gussets to the lower ball joints. I had a certified welder do this. I made the parts and he welded them on for me. Here are a few pictures of parts used. I hope to get this all final assembled this weekend and I'll get some better pictures then. I'm dying to get this on the road and see how it handles!

[Brads70]

Been wrenching all evening and I'm almost finished!    I have tomorrow off ( 4 day weekend!)
Just have to bleed the front calipers and weld in the rear sway bar mounts, set the toe, and she is on the road. Weather man is calling for nice weather for the next couple of days too!  :2thumbs:
I had to machine down the caliper banjo bolts .120" in length to work with the Viper calipers. Custom brake lines worked good! I'm using 1/2" wheel spacers to get some clearance between the tie rod and the tire and it widens the front track too! I had to use Moroso longer wheel studs