A.G.A.R. 1970 Barracuda Convertible.....IMPORTANT UPDATE !!

[JS29]

Yes, what are dust bunny's?    I have a procedure I use, I ground the vehicle with a chain while i spray it. Your creating static electricity in the paint process. then I wet sand all the way down to 5,000 grit with a finishing sander. rubbing compound on wool pad, over kill as they say one could just machine glaze with foam pad. then I do the foam pad thing. wash it and hand glaze.  some say it's better to do it the next day, but I like to assemble first then buff, just in case I put a light scratch in it during assembly.     

[anlauto]

I'm going to make one final comment about this blue car and then I'm going to move on. I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed. It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget.

The owner was charged by me a total of $12,500 CDN including the 13% provincial sales tax, and including my 10% out-sourced labour fee.
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.

If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed.

[Cuda_mark]

I'm going to make one final comment about this blue car and then I'm going to move on. I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed. It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget.

The owner was charged by me a total of $12,500 CDN including the 13% provincial sales tax, and including my 10% out-sourced labour fee.
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.

If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed.

Holy crap!!! For that kind of money I would be thrilled to have a car that looks as good as that does. I've probably spent more than that with the post-paint wet sand on one side of my car. How are you supposed to get gaps and panel alignment perfect on that kind of budget? Magic?

[303 Mopar]

So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.

If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed.

Honestly if you quoted me this price I would be very suspicious of the quality of work I was going to get. There is a line between a fair price and too low.

[HEMICUDA]

I agree with you, it's the customers fault for giving the work to an ebody "expert" that doesn't know any better that the paint/metal and body work is way under acceptable.  As a high end restorer of all my own cars, let the customer know the level of quality you're selling, tell the customer up front so they can make the decision if that's what they want, then I get it.  I have no problem with Alan and the detail work he does on parts, he's my $25 hour guy I trained  and watch over so the work is done correctly.  As I've said before, all the money in a restoration is the talent to bump the metal around to insure body gaps and body lines and the entire body is straight, not to mention the paint and finish work.  There's not a reproduction panel on the planet you can just bolt on a car and paint without moving lines around and a bunch of long blocking to get it to the level of a customer paying a bile of money for.  If you're selling a "100% restoration" and not doing to do the "money" work, at least let the customer know up front so they can make that decision.   If I have to "babysit" any job that I'm paying for to a "so called expert",  they're not getting the business.  You have the "average Joe" with a car they want restored that knows nothing about the process looking for a company that promotes a "100% restoration", why should they have to inspect the work?  It's no secret Alan has a real problem with me, only because of the "snake oil" he's selling to the average guy that doesn't know better that gets me.  No, this is not a self promotion, I do all our work and don't need the money, it's my way or the highway.  If you can't afford the talent it takes to do it right, I'm not your guy.

[benlavigne]

Obviously, not everyone wants or can afford a high-end 1000-point perfect restoration, as a matter of fact, I'd say it's the case for most people on this forum... It's probably very nice to have patrons with unlimited budget funding a restorer's obsession to details...
THere is a place for affordable, driver-quality work with an attention to details specific to the brand that Alan provides. Of course, the finished product will not compete with the ''other'' shop's show poodles at judged shows, but it will be done much quicker and cheaper, and will satisfy 95% of people with correct expectations and budget. I don't think it's fair to keep hammering on the fact that the jobs were not perfect, if the budget was not there for it.

Ben

[Timbbuc2]

I agree with you, it's the customers fault for giving the work to an ebody "expert" that doesn't know any better that the paint/metal and body work is way under acceptable.  As a high end restorer of all my own cars, let the customer know the level of quality you're selling, tell the customer up front so they can make the decision if that's what they want, then I get it.  I have no problem with Alan and the detail work he does on parts, he's my $25 hour guy I trained  and watch over so the work is done correctly.  As I've said before, all the money in a restoration is the talent to bump the metal around to insure body gaps and body lines and the entire body is straight, not to mention the paint and finish work.  There's not a reproduction panel on the planet you can just bolt on a car and paint without moving lines around and a bunch of long blocking to get it to the level of a customer paying a bile of money for.  If you're selling a "100% restoration" and not doing to do the "money" work, at least let the customer know up front so they can make that decision.   If I have to "babysit" any job that I'm paying for to a "so called expert",  they're not getting the business.  You have the "average Joe" with a car they want restored that knows nothing about the process looking for a company that promotes a "100% restoration", why should they have to inspect the work?  It's no secret Alan has a real problem with me, only because of the "snake oil" he's selling to the average guy that doesn't know better that gets me.  No, this is not a self promotion, I do all our work and don't need the money, it's my way or the highway.  If you can't afford the talent it takes to do it right, I'm not your guy.

I don't care if you are Mark Worman , Dave Kendig or Chip Foose, if I am paying for a restoration or even for just a paint job I am coming over several times to see the progress and if any shop don't like me coming by they don't need my business.
Further more this thread has went far enough. If anyone has a beef with another member email them. If I want negatively I will watch the news

[Shane Kelley]

I agree with you, it's the customers fault for giving the work to an ebody "expert" that doesn't know any better that the paint/metal and body work is way under acceptable.  As a high end restorer of all my own cars, let the customer know the level of quality you're selling, tell the customer up front so they can make the decision if that's what they want, then I get it.  I have no problem with Alan and the detail work he does on parts, he's my $25 hour guy I trained  and watch over so the work is done correctly.  As I've said before, all the money in a restoration is the talent to bump the metal around to insure body gaps and body lines and the entire body is straight, not to mention the paint and finish work.  There's not a reproduction panel on the planet you can just bolt on a car and paint without moving lines around and a bunch of long blocking to get it to the level of a customer paying a bile of money for.  If you're selling a "100% restoration" and not doing to do the "money" work, at least let the customer know up front so they can make that decision.   If I have to "babysit" any job that I'm paying for to a "so called expert",  they're not getting the business.  You have the "average Joe" with a car they want restored that knows nothing about the process looking for a company that promotes a "100% restoration", why should they have to inspect the work?  It's no secret Alan has a real problem with me, only because of the "snake oil" he's selling to the average guy that doesn't know better that gets me.  No, this is not a self promotion, I do all our work and don't need the money, it's my way or the highway.  If you can't afford the talent it takes to do it right, I'm not your guy.

I don't care if you are Mark Worman , Dave Kendig or Chip Foose, if I am paying for a restoration or even for just a paint job I am coming over several times to see the progress and if any shop don't like me coming by they don't need my business.
Further more this thread has went far enough. If anyone has a beef with another member email them. If I want negatively I will watch the news

  Enough already!!!

[Cuda Cody]

This thread will be locked soon.  Erik has requested he be allowed to respond and since this is his car it's only fair we allow him to tell his side of the story.  After that, the discussion between the directly involved parties can be done through emails or PM's.

Erik is also more than welcome to start his own restoration thread about his own car and the work he's doing to it as long as it does not get personal.  We all want to help each other and sometimes it's just a matter of finding something nice to say.  The few times I've spoke to Erik on the phone I can tell he's a very intelligent guy that shares our passion for these cars.  Let's all be part of the solution to help Erik make his car everything he wants it to be through positive support and comments that help him achieve his goals with this project.


@slapshot  has asked I add this:

"I'm going to make one final comment about this blue car and then I'm going to move on. I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed. It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget.

The owner was charged by me a total of $12,500 CDN including the 13% provincial sales tax, and including my 10% out-sourced labour fee.
So just to put that into perspective for you American guys, that's the equivalent of approximately $9600.00 USD for the complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out. If you remove the taxes and my cut, that's a $7600 USD paint job.

If you think you can get welded to perfection gaps, a finish that is cut and buffed to perfection for this kind of price then I'm very sorry, but you will disappointed. "

Alan,
I went through your invoices and the complete costs as I understand them for the body and paint job (excluding any parts) was north of 20k. You didn't include the costs for the metal work, blasting the shell and your additional numerous 'self' paint prep charges. It can be assumed your wording of "complete body and paint work, top to bottom, inside and out" would include these additional costs that you did not consider as typically would be charged by the paint shop when they do the complete job.

"It boils down to having champagne expectations on a beer budget."
That makes no sense Alan since the costs of your restoration ended up costing about 20k more than your quote.
You never mentioned there were any body or paint issues with my car or provided any options for me to consider to rectify those deficiencies. If the fender needed more alignment time to get it right, why wouldn't you tell me? If the paint needed to be cut and polished because of heavy debris in the initial clear coat, why wouldn't you let me know of the issue? If you needed another $40 to make a trip back to the paint shop so they could have repainted the valence they had damaged then why wouldn't you ask?
Again, you never mentioned any of these issues about my car to me and that was wrong.

"I understand the owner is unhappy but we went through all of this four years ago and nothing has changed."
Correct Alan. You have still offered to do absolutely zero about the issues on my car.

My advice to you is that honesty is always the best approach and then let the owner decide what they want to do. Sending pictures of flaws in your restoration and providing whatever options are available to fix the problem is a far better approach than surprising the owner with the flaws after they take delivery of the car. Faster isn't better, unless you are on the drag strip. If you need more time to work bugs out of a car, take the time and make it right and stand behind your work instead of blowing customers off.

[ErikR]

I am going to keep my arguments clear and simple since this thread has already stared to go off track with only one side of the story being presented.
When my car arrived, I noticed problems with it immediately, as it was being unloaded from the truck. In the first 2 weeks the list of problems I could identify grew and new problems popped up. I was promised verbally and in writing a 100% restoration and that is not what I got.
Problems happen with newly restored cars and in all facets of life, we all know this. What's important is how one reacts to solve these problems. I've tried to get these problems straight with Alan, first in writing, then in person, and he has repeatedly shrugged off all the issues I've raised and has not stepped up to try and make things right with me. Finally, I took my car elsewhere to get some very basic things fixed that no one with a 'restored' car, at any level, should have to deal with. I gave him a chance to pay for these repairs and told I'll keep my comments about his work off this forum, but as expected he shrugged this off. He then urged me to go online and bash his bad work and as you can see, he posted on this forum with a weak and inaccurate attempt to frame me as a customer who cannot be pleased.
One informative thing to keep in mind is that Alan has never called a customer after he's 'restored' a car for them and asked if they are satisfied with their car. This says a lot about his attitude and approach to business.
An un-provoked tirade on a paying customer in a public forum is clearly unprofessional behavior, but this is what you get when you do business Alan. He claims he never said he is a professional, and he is right, he is not a pro. He's had numerous arguments with all the top-level professionals in the business on the forums over the years, he has no problem pointing out everyone's mistakes, and lacks the insight to identify and acknowledge the glaring deficits in his own restoration workflow. You can't have it both ways Alan, talking like you're a pro and then backtracking from that when problems arise and coping out saying just do driver-quality work.
I hired him to restore my car because I thought he had the knowledge and experience to deliver a 100% restoration. Before I did business with him, I thought he had a good reputation. Lots of cars done, and no one posting about problems but once you dig deeper with his past customer, you quickly find out that there are a lot of issues with past cars and no one wants to step up and speak the truth until now with me and my car.... and just now member slapstick, thanks man!
Now a 100% restoration agreement without a detailed written contract can be debatable but here what I was expecting. 100% of the parts are assembled correctly and carefully. All electrical and mechanical systems are functional, and in addition these systems have been tested and dialed in as part of the troubleshooting.
The contracted restoration person has the expertise to say what is acceptable or not with respect to paint and body work. I did not inspect the final paint in person because I do not have the expertise to evaluate and that's what I thought I was paying for, expert assessment but I did not get it.
All levels of paint jobs right? I was paying for a 17 grand CAD collision shop job, and what I got does not even an acceptable job at that low level. Other guys have seen this first hand and found it completely unacceptable, numerous body and paint glaring problems that will be outlined in a separate post. Alan never discussed higher end options with me and after spending so much on the car I certainly would have gone for a higher quality job. Alan said the paint was acceptable to him looked, good but then he's ignorant to what is acceptable. In fact, in my last phone conversation in with him, he admitted there were paint problems, but then went on to deny it.
You don't expect the restorer to have a childish temper tantrum when you decide to switch from manual to power steering, but this is what you get when you hire Alan. As a customer you will have to take the high road because he has your car and parts and walk him back from his childish tantrum to get back on track. As a paying customer, I expect the contractor to do what I request even if plans change after all I'm paying.
My car arrived with the belt moldings not seated on the clips. Alan also chipped my paint bad trying to put on the passenger side mounding and he did not pre-bend to fit them correctly. The rear trim was not fully seated on the clips either.
You don't expect them to blindly assemble parts but this is what Alan does. He does not get electric switches rebuilt and does not have the expertise or insight to bench test electrics, he just slaps it together and hopes it works, which is absurd if you are paying for a 100% restoration. My car had a lot of electric issues and so did other past customers.
My dash light bar is out, the floor lights don't work properly, the clock doesn't work, the taillights don't work. The brake light stays on because the brakes were never bled properly and then the brake light switch cannot be adjusted until the brakes are properly bled. The gauges were not thoroughly tested so that my tach at the last minute had to be replaced with an aftermarket one that doesn't even match. I was not told about this, just that it would be replaced.
I have a long list of parts I supplied to Alan that were already restored by the top guys in the business and that is why some of my car is top notch, the stuff that has nothing to do with Alan.

[Spikedog08]

This thread will be locked soon.  Erik has requested he be allowed to respond and since this is his car it's only fair we allow him to tell his side of the story.  After that, the discussion between the directly involved parties can be done through emails or PM's.

Erik is also more than welcome to start his own restoration thread about his own car and the work he's doing to it as long as it does not get personal.  We all want to help each other and sometimes it's just a matter of finding something nice to say.  The few times I've spoke to Erik on the phone I can tell he's a very intelligent guy that shares our passion for these cars.  Let's all be part of the solution to help Erik make his car everything he wants it to be through positive support and comments that help him achieve his goals with this project.

Very well said Cody!  This site is for support to all and bashing will not be allowed so as Cody has indicated, let's stay positive!