Rehauling e-body HD drum brakes

[RUNCHARGER]

That's looking good.

[kawahonda]

Alright guys, I'm nearing the end of the en-devour.

I torqued the wheel bearing nut on. I assume the "bevel" side of the nut faces outward (couldn't find any confirmation in the FSM). I torqued to 90 inch pound while spinning the hub, put on the nut cover, and backed it off about 1 teeth slot. Pulling back and forth on the hub reveals no perceptual play. Rubber hammered the dented caps back on (I cleaned them out of the old grease before hand).

I also spent some more time doing the initial adjustment on the drums.

Rears: Adjusting the rears by feel is pretty difficult, especially with Suretrack because you're essentially spinning both wheels. Basically, I did it both ways...get it too tight, then back it off 8-10 clicks, and get it too loose (goes on too easy) and forward it 8-10 clicks. Either way, I consider the rears done. Spinning the wheels allows for a "scrapy scrapy" sound with almost all of the force coming simply from the differential. Good to go, I'll let the adjusters fine-tune those.

Fronts: Adjusting these is much easier since you get a total feel of the brake. I basically tightened them up quite a bit from where they were at. As of now, i can spin the drums about 1/2 - 3/4 revolution (without wheel and tire on). It's probably on the loose side, but it should brake properly until the self adjusters go to town.

So I'm going to leave it there unless advised differently.

All that's left to do is give the system one more bleed to be sure, then install wheel/tires and back it up a bunch.

All fittings are tight. No leaks. Things are coming along pretty darn smoothly.

I've noticed after looking closer at some of the seals in the front of the suspension (that hold the grease at the pivot points) that they are ripped/shot. I suppose that could be the next project. Always considered just dropping it off at a reputable suspension shop and having all the seals/suspension/bushings gone through. Much easier on a lift.

[bc3j]

FWIW I also have a sure-grip rear end and I just manually turned the adjuster and slid the drum on and off until I just felt the shoes sliding on the drum. Used my hands to center the shoes between adjustments.  Made sure the adjuster lever was engaged and slid the drum on. Went to an empty parking lot a backed up a few times. After that I let the adjusters do the rest. Found it worked pretty good and took the rear end out of the process.

[kawahonda]

Alrighty! Got it on the road.

At first, there was a lack of pressure. Not hydraulic pressure, but brake pressure. That's to be expected because I left things on the loose side.

Drove it to the HS parking lot and probably did about 30 back-up and stops (pressing as hard as I could). Killed the car a few times.

After about 10 minutes, man, the pedal feels super rock solid and the car stops MUCH better.

It's hard to explain, but the pedal feels dynamic now for the first time, instead of just flat/binary. It feels like HULK is now under your foot. Feels really solid is all I could say. Brakes have never felt so "new" in this car since I've had it!

I did notice a couple things after cruising it around after awhile. Minor things.

1) Parking brake doesn't work very well anymore. There is an adjustment procedure, but the FSM wants you to be sure that everything is adjusted properly...which means "auto adjusted". In my opinion, this means to not rush any adjustment of the parking brake until after a few weeks of driving. Just avoid parking on hills until then. After a couple weeks, if the parking brake doesn't grab like it should, proceed to adjustment. The only reason I say this is because the shoes that I removed measured very well....not much wear, but just aged. There shouldn't be a big difference in the parking brake actuation before/after. THen again, the rear drum shoes did change sizes slightly (as mentioned previously). I just don't want to go adjusting it until I'm absolutely sure the self adjust stuff is finished!

2) I get a "whirl-whirl" sound on the passenger side ONLY during very soft/slow braking...I believe it's coming from the pass rear side. Not going to rush to take the drum off, but maybe I'll see if this goes away after more "self adjustment". If not, then a) spray brake cleaner on shoes and inner hub to assure it's clean, b) perhaps consider re-applying brake grease behind shoe contact points (I disagree with this, because I know I did). I'm not sure what else to check.

My thought is to simply just drive the car and it's likely those two items will go away. When I left the HS parking lot, the brakes felt really good. Who knows...maybe after another jaunt tomorrow and repeating the same thing they will even be better!

I do wonder if I have to stop so hard in reverse to kill the car though. LOL.

[kawahonda]

Today I worked on fine tuning the brakes some. I took a temp reading with my laser gun after 4-5 miles of driving with some solid braking. I saw the drums being in the range of 130-145F. The driver's rear being 170F.

I jacked up the car and rotated the rear tires. The driver's rear did feel a tad bit stiffer, but it was really close to the passenger rear as far as friction is concerned. I loosened the parking brake nut and rechecked the rotation, no change. This tells me the parking brake isn't playing any part and was in fact a bit loose. I removed the driver's rear wheel and shortened the star adjuster some (maybe 4-5 clicks), then remounted the tire. Now both sides feel pretty dead even.

I then proceeded to adjust the parking brake by the FSM. I did however choose to be VERY conservative as the drums are still likely bedding. Basically, I adjusted them to where you have to fully press the pedal down to the last couple notches for it to hold the car from a driveway incline. I feel like this is a good setting for now until the brakes get more of a work out, and feel better knowing that it does have some stopping power for the time being rather than none.

I retook it out on a 4-5 mile drive. Did a couple backups as well. I rechecked the temp and it's the same--the driver's rear still being 170F and giving off more odor than the rest.

Curious if this is completely normal.

I did find this quote out of a Model A magazine:

""I have checked brake drum temperature (sic) several times with a digital infrared thermometer. I have found that good working brake drums should attain a heat range of 160 degrees and 180 degrees. Temperatures over 200 degrees lead to brake fade and paint blistering of drums. Anything less than 150 degrees indicates brakes need adjustment or repair and may not be working correctly. Brake drums should be checked after 8-10 consecutive complete stops after reaching 45 M.P.H.""

[RUNCHARGER]

Hmm: Maybe that self adjuster tightens up with less friction than the others. I would keep my eye on it for sure.

[kawahonda]

Yeah. It likes to stay 25F hotter than the rest. Pretty annoying.

I checked the axle in play for the hell of it and I'm still at .012, which is where I set it too. Plus, I know it's brakes hence the shoe smell.

Drum looks exactly like it should look per the manual. Nothing is incorrectly assembled.

If I shorten the star wheel further then I feel like the car will just adjust them back. Haha. Maybe it's still worth a try. I wish I had calipers that where large enough to measure the diameter of the shoes and hub.

Perhaps I can measure the adjuster length on the passenger rear and just mimic that length on driver side. That will assure regardless of feel if I'm way off.

[kawahonda]

I measured .5mm of additional adjuster thread on drivers rear compared to passenger rear. I reduced it to match the other side. Worth a shot!

[RUNCHARGER]

Yes: Try it. You might need to find another adjuster for it.

[kawahonda]

Alrighty. As I was backing up out the driveway, I think I heard a "click" sound. Ugh. Kinda sounded like the adjuster somewhere wanting to take back up some slack. BUT.....

Put it in gear, and started driving off. I shifted it into "N" and just let it coast down the street....and it coasted quite well. No resistance.

About 2 miles later after "normal" braking/driving, I could tell something was starting to grab slightly again. Put it into "N" and sure enough it was slightly dragging.

Again, the rear driver's drum hub is measuring 20-40F higher than the rest. So it's definitely that wheel. I could measure the threads again to see if it "adjusted" itself back to where it was before. Is it possible for an adjuster to be too lose? Never heard of that. Probably not too lose, but maybe the "claw" part wears to where it will spin more than one tooth during adjustment?

Other possible problems:

1) Line is crimped. It's not crimped, it's new line hard line.

2) Hose is deteriorated. No it's not. It's a new hose. And if there were true I'd see problems on the other side, I would think.

3) Faulty Raybestos wheel cylinder. It's possible, but been reading VERY unlikely.

4) Parking brake is hanging up or still engaged. Not very likely, being that the parking brake right now barely works, and it didn't work worth a hell at all when the driver's rear was exhibiting the same high temps.

5) Contact points of shoes on backing plate is causing shoes to hang. Didn't do a good enough job cleaning?

Other?

Either way, it sounds like something needs to be disassembled and resolved. I probably should start off with measuring the adjuster threads again to see if I get 14mm. If I'm back at 14.5mm, with backing up and touching the brakes only 1 time, then it definitely moved more than one click. But then again, shortly after driving off after pulling out of the driveway it wasn't grabbing and rolled pretty smooth....

[MoparLeo]

Just a question. Are you manually loosening the adjusters or are they needing constant adjustment. They are one way adjusters and can't back off unless something is amiss. Also,, this is just from professional experience and per the brake component manufacturers recommendations but to insure even braking especially on the fronts, the brake drums are to be replaced, like tires in pairs on each axle. this assures even gripping force and heat dissipation as a thinner drum will heat up faster than a thicker drum/lining. So the people who machined your drums should have measured the drums before they machined them and then again after they were machined to insure that they were still within the mfg.s specs. When we machined rotors and drums for customers who brought their drums/rotors into our store for machining. That was the procedure. That way if the drum/rotor was not in specs after machining was done, the customer would know that they should be replaced and if they had a vibration problem, what the cause was. Also
at least in California, the shop that machined the brake parts would be liable in case of a brake failure caused by using out of spec parts and not informing the customer.

[kawahonda]

They didn't provide specs, but they said "we barely took anything off...roughly around 4 thousandths".  And I know when I brought the drums to them they were like "oh, these can easily be turned" after measuring.

I don't think this is an issue with my drums or the resurfacing. If so, why are the ones are pretty cool...130-140F is the max I've seen them get to. This right rear loves to get to 180F and I have no doubt it would go beyond that if I drove further.

I'll measure the driver's rear adjuster threading tomorrow to see if it adjusted itself, and how much it adjusted. I only backed up and pressed the brake 1 time per the last run. That SHOULD mean one click. I've never adjusted them "longer", always shorter. Is it possible for an adjuster to jump more than 1-tooth if the paw/claw is worn?

I'll check that, and I'll probably, knowing me, wind up dissembling everything (but leaving wheel cylinder attached) and check shoe contact points. We know for a fact these things at this point:

1) after shortening the problem child's adjuster and backing up and pulling forward, I was able to coast down the street in neutral with no rolling resistance. On the way back home (after 2 miles), I could tell there was brake resistance while coasting in neutral.

2) The culprit is consistently the driver's rear wheel going by temperature. Without a doubt.

3) Lifting up the car and just spinning the rear wheels around will lead you to believe there is absolutely no problem.

Perhaps I can jack up the car tomorrow, press the brake, then spin. Press the brake again, then spin. I've noticed however on other forum posts that the problem many times won't show up there, either. Things needs to get warm first.

[MoparLeo]

OK. So you have no idea what the drums are or were measuring. Only that they only took 4 thou. off.  And that they were like " Oh, these can be easily turned. " Ha Ha,  Off of what ? Don't you want to know what you have ? I just get a kick out of how technical and thorough you try to be on somethings and have no idea about the other. Self adjusters only tighten up to take up any slack that eventually happens when the shoes and drum wear, That's it. No real adjusting, just tightening. So they will not be the same on each wheel unless all the drums have the exact same inner diameter. We don't know though since they weren't measured, or I mean that the measurements were never documented for you or them. So don't worry about matching one sides thread count to the other. It won't. The best you can hope for is that you don't get a hard brake pull when the brakes get hot and start to fade. One of the reasons that drum brakes haven't been used on the front of cars for about 50 years now. . Overall a good thread though. Just for laughs, why not take your car to a certified brake mechanic and have them do a thorough brake inspection including documenting the drums specs. so will have a known starting point and verification that everything is working properly. Just like taking your car to have the alignment checked after you do front end parts replacement.  Always better to have a trained pair of eyes to safety check it for you. I always had the techs have another tech double check their work before the drums/ wheels went back on. Anyone can make a mistake.

[Bullitt-]

  ....... Just a theory.... What if the passenger side rear adjuster isn't working as effectively as the drivers side for some reason?  Is the imbalance not the cause of the extra heat on drivers side? 

[bc3j]

I'm curious too.  Only my right right is hotter than the left. New drums and shoes and all new spring and hardware parts. No brake smell on either rear.  All the replacement parts are probably from China. Is that the problem? I did go through three Chinese wheel cylinders that kept blowing out the seals on the right side. Used one of my older wheel cylinders to fix it.