No Rebel flags flying?

[70 Challenger Lover]

When I was in school, the information about the Civil War was very different than what is being taught today. It was about state rights and not wanting to feel they were under the thumb of other states or the feds. Slavery was but one issue defining their differences and it was also once taught that abolishing it, while right, was done so out of politics rather than altruism. Today, it is presented differently and yes, I'm going to come out and say the history is rewritten from time to time. Someone must have one of grandpa's old set of encyclopedias around. Check for yourself.

I find it very difficult to believe that white Northern men back then we're all so united against the practice of slavery that a war erupted over that issue alone and all the white men were willing to sacrifice their very lives in the crusade to stop it, even if it meant killing relatives in southern states. And then generations after those pure and noble justice warriors went to heaven, their children and grandchildren went on to become the racists we apparently have today.

[worthywads]

I find it difficult to believe that there would have been a civil war if slavery was never legal in the US.

[70 Challenger Lover]

Why is that so difficult to believe? The country is extremely divided now and slavery hasn't been on the table for a century and a half. I think the only reason things aren't worse now is that most Americans today are so self absorbed that they aren't willing to risk their own deaths for their beliefs.

Do people really believe that half of the nation back then was pure evil while the other half were angels willing to sacrifice their lives for the chance to help strangers with nothing to gain for themselves?  That sounds like a fairytale to me.

[worthywads]

Why is that so difficult to believe? The country is extremely divided now and slavery hasn't been on the table for a century and a half. I think the only reason things aren't worse now is that most Americans today are so self absorbed that they aren't willing to risk their own deaths for their beliefs.

Do people really believe that half of the nation back then was pure evil while the other half were angels willing to sacrifice their lives for the chance to help strangers with nothing to gain for themselves?  That sounds like a fairytale to me.

There wouldn't have been a civil war without it being about slavery.  Yeah it's a fairy tale to think it wasn't about slavery.

Pure evil, no.  But both sides effectively worked on the fear of being called a coward back in that time.

But no way in hell would 600,000+ plus have gone to war for states rights without slavery as the root of the conflict.

[Brads70]

Was slavery really the issue or was it a convenient excuse?  A " moral smokescreen if you will?   As it always is " follow the money"
Taxes/tariffs on Southern goods going to Great Britain when the "North" wanted them shipped up to northern mills. "Protectionism " from wealthy northern industrialist  that had " influenced" ( $$$ ) the government of the day.  Funny how some things never change huh?
Don't get me wrong slavery is disgusting and should always be outlawed/opposed , but to say the civil war was just over slavery is a stretch . History books are always written by the victors. Burning down peoples houses/businesses, raping , looting, murder,carpetbaggers, stealing wealth the "North" did all this and more.    I'm not picking a side so to say, as both sides had more than enough "ugly" to make any sane man sick! 
Slavery exists today on a huge scale, it's just the "chains" are invisible.  It still revolves around money and power. The cycle continues.  Human greed is always, and will always be the root cause for wars. Greed for power and wealth are the same issues plaguing mankind since day one. Mankind is incapable of governing them selves without greed for power and wealth creeping in.   
On the issue of the flag, if not displaying a flag would solve all the issues or even most or some then personally I'd be for not displaying it. I totally get , agree, and respect the symbolism of it's meaning of giving the middle finger to the powers than be. Southern pride and all. I get it , support it and admire it. Heck I want to move to the south.  When I see that flag displayed a part of me smiles inside. I see black people displaying it for the same reasons!    Unfortunately it can't be denied that racists have used it as a different meaning that I abhor. As pointed out earlier, similar as the swastika. So for that reason I wouldn't publicly display it, but I don't look down on others that display it either( except the racists of course)  .  But getting rid of a flag won't get rid of this sense of entitlement that is a plague on our society. It's just another moral smokescreen ..... the cycle continues...   

[torredcuda]

"History books are always written by the victors. Burning down peoples houses/businesses, raping , looting, murder,carpetbaggers, stealing wealth the "North" did all this and more.    I'm not picking a side so to say, as both sides had more than enough "ugly" to make any sane man sick! "

If the South won history would be written a lot differently. The British called us traitors, the North then called the South traitors, slightly hypocritical?
One third of the people polled recently think we are headed for another civil war, it does not happen over one single issue but happens over a wide gap in political/social views which is exactly what is happening lately.

[cuda hunter]

The war was more about taxes than anything else. 

The smoke screen was slavery?
The north had slaves, just not as many as they had more immigrants for their factories. 

To erase the history of my family ancestry only puts this country one step closer to that civil war again.

It's all about money.  Not slavery, not racism, but political gain.  Follow the money. 

I tried to stay out of this.  Quite the sore subject as I am a Rebel.  If you look, the same people dismantling the statues of my confederacy are the same people dismantling and disrespecting the statues of you Yanks. And again the same people that are disrespecting the monuments of our valued Veterans.   The truth is that us Rebels and you Yanks are the same, Americans. 
These "protesters" aren't moral and Just. They are rioters and hypocrits.  Inner city folk living off the system.  They have lost track of our capitalist republic's ideals.  They threaten violence but have no idea the wrath that awaits them.  They call for no police.  They have funding set up just to help the blacks.  Who cares about the white business owners who have been looted.  They practice their own racism and claim I'm racist and have white privilege. I work 6 days a week, 12 to 14 hours a day.  Our country was built upon the backs of strong men not those who ask for handouts and reparations. 
Blame the flag, blame my color, blame my ancestors.  Until the blame is taken as theirs, there will be no change.  Slavery is just what every nation did, until our American experiment changed that.  Us alone.  Americans changed that. Before the civil war times and after the war times. I'm disgusted to see what is happening in America right now. And then to have the blame put upon my white skin and my ancestry is entirely missing the point. 
  The more the rebels flag is frowned upon the more I will fly it.  Such is the value of the Rebel, I will not lay down and I will not live on my knees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUFiG1YBwc



Oh, it's rather disappointing that a Canadian calls out that the war was not fought for slavery but for taxes. 
Brad is absolutely right.  But apparently my American brethren have truly forgotten and bought into the bait and switch of our history. 
 

[Joegrapes]

"History books are always written by the victors" Mostly true but in this case no. Being raised up north the Civil War was not a big thing. Sure it was taught in schools and most towns have an old cemetery with a monument that has names of local boys that died but that's about it. I've been going to Florida since the 60's and references to the Civil War were every place. I remember the license plates that had a rebel soldier on it that said "He'll no we ain't forgot"
Believe me in this case the history was written by the side that lost.

[JS29]

The millennial's are taught that the civil war was about slavery, Not states rights. I had to walk away from one once because his teacher taught him that , so it had to be true.     

[worthywads]

The millennial's are taught that the civil war was about slavery, Not states rights. I had to walk away from one once because his teacher taught him that , so it had to be true. 

The primary state right they were fighting for was the right to own slaves. 

From the confederate constitution it is clear they weren't interested in all states rights, demanding all confederate states must allow slaves, even if over time a slave state wanted to reject slavery.

"In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."

South Carolina seceded in part because it didn't like northern "states rights" to reject their demand that escaped slaves be returned.  What about states rights?  South Carolina and other slave states wanted Federal control in free states for slave owner's benefit.

In 1861, before the civil war started Texas didn't mention taxes or states rights in their declaration of  secession.  Sure seems like it was mostly about slavery, and the northern free states demanding the slave states give up that right.  It was about money alright, the prosperity of whites alone.

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."

"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States."

Clearly the concern is the north's crusade to free slaves.  Claiming it was about taxes and states rights is whitewashing the main desire to keep slaves, and white supremacy.

[Skid Row]

 :pokeeye:I call BS, Opinion piece only. Ya think "everyone" had slaves, and was basis for a civil war?

[worthywads]

:pokeeye:I call BS, Opinion piece only. Ya think "everyone" had slaves, and was basis for a civil war?

If you are talking about my posts, those quotes are from the Confederate Constitution and from the Texas declaration of succession, not opinion.

No one thinks everyone had slaves, but yeah legal slavery and white supremacy was the basis for the civil war.

Only in a confederate state would you learn in school that it wasn't about slavery.

[HP2]

The seeds of the Civil War began at the conclusion of the war of 1812 when Britain began dumping product into the US market at ever decreasing prices to economically punish the country.  The economic impacts of this that led to various trade agreements, treaties, and numerous compromise agreements that occurred between 1820-1850.  Some of these agreements benefiting some segments of society more than others. Also within this context during this era was the creation and dissolution of the Whig party, the rise of the Republican party, and westward expansion into new, undeclared, and ungoverned territories and the political disagreements on whether these new areas that would be colonized and built into states would fall under pro or anti slavery policies to support the politics and policies of these agreements born out of the decades before the war. All this came to a very pointed moment in 1861. 

That is all very complex set of associations over a generation that don't lend themselves well to basic high school civics class.  As I mentioned previously, such teachings are done so we can quickly and easily compartmentalized information to allows us to grasp a concept and move on to the next subject. It is then up to us to further expand that knowledge either through a formal education, personal exploration or both. To boil this all down to states rights and slavery is how the topic is simplified to rapid understanding to move on to the next lesson.

Then, as now, the press tended to highlight stories that were shocking or extreme viewpoints to highlight the far ends and stimulate discussion about how to meet in the compromise to best suit the greatest number of citizens. Then, as now, politicians were lampooned, public editorials and opinion pieces appeared, and the merits of topics were debated, dissected, and at the ballot box, voted upon. In this way, not much has changed except for the vehicles in which the news is delivered. To view the extreme and sensationalized views espoused by media outlets, whether right or left, and take those as a majority opinion is a slippery slope. Much like the compartmentalized education of high school that allows us to gather massive amounts of information, media is not an end all be all and it is designed to stimulate further investigation and discussion. Our current protests are much the same, even if the vehicle creating them is different.

No one is moving to outlaw the rebel flag and this is no different than the law that similarly allows one to own and fly a German national socialist flag. It is your right to own and display these items.  Participation in private events on private property means the owners of those events and that property can chose to implement their own set of rules as part of the participation engagement. Similar to a release of liability for getting hit in the head by a puck at a hockey game, an organization can specify that you my not bring certain items into their venue. These items could be as basic as seating, hats or umbrellas, they could be vice related like pornography and alcohol, or they could be symbols like flags and shirts. All of us have the right to choose to participate in an event and adhere to their rules or reject their rules and not participate. However, you also have the responsibility  to know that your words, actions, or symbols can be negatively by a few, a lot, or a majority of your fellow citizens.  Each of us then need to understand our values around our choices and see if these need a re-examination of the whys and wherefore of our choices and if they align with the principles of our family and neighbors within our town, state, nation.

Much like the seeds of the Civil War beginning a generation before the conflict, I believe the seeds of discontent that we have now are hold overs from polices implemented a generation before that have been refined and expanded and in some cases, are missing the point of the goal of the United States, and that is not that we are perfect, but that we aspire to be better. If I need to examine and adjust my view to make that improvement, I'm willing to examine it. If I am unwilling, then I must also accept that I may not align with the opinions and laws of my neighbors. Not embracing a rebel flag does not make me any less of a rebel against the process, laws, and systems I see as unjust. There are so many more ways to make an impact without flying a rebel flag.  Your mileage may vary.

[torredcuda]

To me it doesn`t even matter the Stars and Bars were used during the civil war as they were also widely used in  various forms and for variuos reasons  before and after, it was not solely a Confederate flag. I understand Carlilse can make thier rules and we have the choice to participate or not , the point is they are simply another one caving into the latest media/social "issue" which is a flip from embracing the General Lee cars, celebrities and fans.

[70 Challenger Lover]

:pokeeye:I call BS, Opinion piece only. Ya think "everyone" had slaves, and was basis for a civil war?

If you are talking about my posts, those quotes are from the Confederate Constitution and from the Texas declaration of succession, not opinion.

No one thinks everyone had slaves, but yeah legal slavery and white supremacy was the basis for the civil war.

Only in a confederate state would you learn in school that it wasn't about slavery.

I was born in San Diego in 1969 and I have never lived any place other than Southern California. I'm here to tell you when I attended schools, they taught that the war was about state rights. That the southern states objected to being told what to do by others. They taught that the slavery issue was merely one small component of the issue back then. I liked history when I was a kid and I listened to my teachers. I didn't misunderstand what I read or heard.

Since then, the issue has been a growing hotbed of discussion and there is great division. To kindle that kind of hatred and keep it glowing, you have to recite history in a way that inflames people. When I look at my daughters schoolbooks, the story is portrayed differently. It's not that I see it differently. I've always believed in equality. But the printed story is different.

So why would the story have changed. Because we live in the age of victimization and the original story frankly isn't as spicy.