Thoughts on FAKE versus REPRODUCTION (dash VIN/fender tag)

[MoparCarGuy]

This is a deep subject.
Initial thoughts...
FAKE can be equated with representing the car as something it is not.
REPRODUCTION can be equated with replacing something with an exact copy. For the dash VIN plate, this is getting into federal law and, arguably, a federal crime.

I would venture to say that most restorers would be okay with reproducing almost any item if it was correct and documented by additional documentation and/or provenance.
This gets further complicated as we get into the possibility of almost anything being duplicated.

It is concerting that the dash VIN plates are almost there for duplication.
Cars without a broadcast sheet (we know they are many that never had them left in the car to begin with) could at least be verified by the dash VIN plate for engine. If the dash VIN plate matched the cowl & radiator support sequence number then you could be pretty sure you had a legitimate engine/body. And, these cars benefit greatly from a documented ownership history.
Cars with a broadcast sheet have another layer of documentation that adds the SPD/VON/Options. That lends itself to properly recreating a reproduction fender tag, if needed. That is no easy feat considering the many changes as to what the fender tag should or should not have stamped into it at any particular time during the model year.

So, the game gets more complicated and original (not copies) paperwork begins to mean everything to guarantee a particular car is bona fide.
Let's hope the close-but-no-cigar reproduction dash VIN plates do not improve and heaven help us if someone can duplicate a broadcast sheet with tractor-feed holes and
perforations for tear off.

What are your thoughts on this? Alan (@anlauto)?

[MoparCarGuy]

This started up again because of the FC7 T/A JH23J0B297763 that is up for sale again.
You can get up to speed on this car by reading this thread.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3126204/buyer-beware-on-jh23j0b297763-counterfeit-vin-tag.html#Post3126204
Barry Washington is expert on Challenger T/As/Plymouth AARs.

Another layer in what should we call a reproduction dash VIN plate (federal laws apply). REPRODUCTION, in this case, means an exact copy of a real, valid dash VIN plate.
Should it be called a COUNTERFEIT, a REPRODUCTION, or a FAKE if the original plate is gone?

Nuance matters as we are talking about people spending their hard-earned $ on expensive items.

Thoughts?

[anlauto]

I think we're pretty much in agreement. 
AG Backeast is also making dash VIN tags, I'm not sure if they're any better than the offshore eBay ones

My body guy has a 1970 "L" code Challenger, when he was restoring it, the car was at one shop freshly painted but the dash was in his office at his shop...long story short...his shop along with the dash was destroyed by fire. When he was in a coma for three months, his family paid a scrap guy to clean up his place...say bye bye to any chance of finding the VIN tag...he has an eBay tag on the car now....is it consider FAKE or a "black flag" in Barry's eyes ? Who knows ?

[cuda hunter]

If there is a fender tag or a build sheet and the number stamps on the body match then I would consider this a reproduction vin tag. 
  As long as the body match's the fender tag and or build sheet I see no harm in a reproduction vin tag.

  It's a very common thing to happen with these cars. 
To call it a "fake" because someone wanted the car to actually drive again and not sit somewhere getting parted out due to a vin tag missing is ridiculous. 

I understand, putting a tag onto a car that wasn't that tag to begin with is wrong. 

That guy only understands a perfect car that has never lost anything. 
Must be nice to have been around so long that you can play with perfect examples. 
Some of us have never even touched a T/A and would love to have a car that has some "issues" just once in our lives.  I would be pissed if it were my car.  But, perhaps I don't know the whole story.

[JH27N0B]

I seem to recall Dave Walden's main business (ECS was a sideline) was being a licensed authorized manufacturer of replacement VIN tags for cars being repaired from accidents and fires and such?
To me there should be a legitimate way to replace a damaged VIN tag short of having a state police issued tag which we see on some cars.
If I lose my social security card it's not like I get issued some new different identity and am forever changed and flawed or is that not a good analogy? 
One issue here is that different states have different laws.  There was a big blowup in the news not long ago where someone bought a vintage Corvette in one state, went to register it in his state, Kansas I think, and a state police inspection is required there to title a new purchase.  The car had been restored and someone had used incorrect rivets to reinstall the VIN tag.  The car got impounded and was going to be crushed!  Legal fights ensued and years went by while the car sat decaying in an impound lot. The publicity about the case finally led the state legislature to pass a new law essentially saying to the police "lighten up Francis" on these inspections if there is no reason to think the car was stolen.
Some states I've heard the laws all but say that a VIN can't be removed for any purpose, therefore restoring a car is out of the question in those states.
There are legitimate reasons why a VIN can be destroyed and need to be replaced. A car will be forever flawed and devalued if it has a state issued VIN.  Therefore a fire or screwup resulting in a tag getting lost can mean a rare car might be lost or permanently flawed even if everything else can be restored back to new on it.
One way or another the VIN tag should be able to be reissued if the situation where it was damaged or lost is legitimate and documented. At least that's my  .

[MoparCarGuy]

Great discussion. Seems the consensus here is based on some common-sense and logic-based conclusions.
Those that disagree with reproduction dash VIN plates for fully-documented (there goes that subjective wording again) should also be applying state and federal law to the below situation. A real can of worms a.k.a. Pandora's Box.

Removal of full dashpad/dash: Some of the laws say you cannot remove the federally-recognized VIN plate (E-Body dash VIN plate).
Is it not "removal" to take out the dashpad and replace it, transferring the original dash VIN plate to the new dashpad? Who in our hobby is going to say you cannot replace a cracked dashpad?

[cuda hunter]

Who in our hobby is going to say you cannot replace a cracked dashpad?

Now, you know the answer to that......

[JH27N0B]

I need to mention that I've felt for a long time that there is a certain segment of the hobby that doesn't like restorations and passively aggressively attacks those who restore cars, their own, or as a business.
I'm not sure where this comes from, maybe jealousy, obviously some sort of insecurities, or something else I don't know.  But as one who spent a ton of money and many years on restoring one of my cars, I've got this attitude from some.
So this zealous behavior towards attacking cars with "fake tags" or "fake VINs" may tie in with that issue.
They'll applaud some who drives a car with a lot of patina, while ripping on trailer queens.  I'll be the first to agree that some survivor cars have been restored that shouldn't have been, but many cars are just too flawed not to restore.
As one from the "rust belt" who spent a lot of time in my teens, 20s, into my 30s fighting to remove rusted nuts and getting scratched corneas sometimes from getting rust in my eyes, I grew to despise rust with a passion and get great joy at seeing a clean underside, at the same time getting PTSD seeing rust and scale.  But your results may vary, so I don't feel much respect for those who feel a need to put down others for restoring cars. Maybe they love scratched corneas, I don't. Get over it! 

[Rich G.]

I Don't want to stir the pot but here's a good one. My friend bought 2 real AAR's in Carlisle many years ago and put the better body together but used the dash and vin from the other AAR. Why? Don't ask.lol . So it is a real AAR but nothing matches. Is it still a real AAR?

[RUNCHARGER]

A couple of thoughts.
I like to see every one of these cars restored/saved. If a car is missing the VIN tag but it is a real car and not some car made up to be something it never was from the factory I'm all for having a tag made that reflects what it was from the factory.
I've seen bodies junked for various reasons (even lowly 6 cylinder cars) and that's a shame.
I've bought cars with slightly rusted fender tags and had new tags made that matched the originals in every way. When I did this I cleaned the old tags as best I could without further damaging them, then coated them to preserve them and kept them in a safe place and forwarded them with the car if it sold.
I don't agree with making up a fantasy tag UNLESS it is made blatant so people will get a chuckle out of it (like FAKE TAG stamped into it or similar).
I still remember looking for a Hemi body in the 80's and I found a 1971 Hemi GTX in good shape. However the car had been stolen and recovered but the VIN tag on the dash had been destroyed. The car had a Province assigned VIN on it even though it had the documents to prove it's VIN as well as the stamped in #'s. I passed on the car but what a shame, it would be a great car to own today. If it was a 318 car the Provincial VIN wouldn't effect the enjoyment of the car at all but it would take away from the wow factor of it being a Hemi car especially after painting the body, then there would always be questions.

[JH27N0B]

I assume the AAR has cowl stampings and the radiator support stamping still matching the AAR that had the dash with VIN and fender tag on it from the other AAR that got scrapped.  Therefore it's an obvious rebody. If he'd just used the other VIN tag he'd have a legitimate car!
We weren't very sophisticated and often didn't know any better decades ago.  In 83 when I was in college I bought the most loaded 71 cuda 340 I ever have seen from the original owner. The guy had used it mostly to drive back and forth to the train station to catch the train to the city.  Despite only having 29,000 miles, it had terminal rot from Chicago area salted roads.
I looked into restoring it but was told too far gone due to frame and floor rot. This was long before AMD.
I thought about getting a southern states Barracuda and using it to restore by rebodying it, but that was way over my ability as a busy college kid with parents who had a suburban house with a 1 car garage.  So I sold it. But at the time the fact my car would have been an illegitimate rebody if I'd been able to "restore" it that way was not something I knew.

[Skdmark]

 
For me it comes down to intent in many cases.

A fake is done with the intent to deceive / misrepresent.

A reproduction is intended to replace a damaged or missing original. The motivation is to bring it back to a "like-new" condition, functional or to make complete. As we all know, reproductions have varying degrees of quality. Rarely are they indistinguishable from an original. This is why so much emphasis gets placed on original documentation. It's a means to support authenticity and establish provenance.

Any hobby that involves collectability (when supply < demand then >$$) has some sort of forgery occurring.

Caveat emptor

[larry4406]

I was thinking that I would get a second fender tag made that said "Clone" or something to that effect and then list all the options I added.

[anlauto]

I was thinking that I would get a second fender tag made that said "Clone" or something to that effect and then list all the options I added.

I do that for my customers all the time, I don't mess with the VIN number

[71GranCoupe]

I was thinking that I would get a second fender tag made that said "Clone" or something to that effect and then list all the options I added.

I do that for my customers all the time, I don't mess with the VIN number

How about ECLONE? 

I do like it though.