Suspension Upgrades on Stock e-body Suspension

[cudabite]

Hi all,

I'm looking to hear recommendations on suspension upgrades on my 70 challenger. I'm looking to have it be a comfortable drive, similar to a newer vehicle - I also have a 2011 SRT and I'd love for the old one to handle much more like that. I've been doing some research and it seems like there's a ton of options. Money isn't a huge factor to me, but I don't want to overspend and would prefer to get it to be a comfortable drive similar to a modern vehicle while sticking with a more factory style setup if possible. So far what I've done is replaced the bushings with poly bushings. I've also put in KYB shocks all the way around. (I did both of these a while ago). It definitely doesn't feel very stuff and jumps around a lot.  I'm thinking of hotchkis sway bars in the front and rear, bigger torsion bars (recommendations?) and subframe connectors. What else would you recommend?  The car's currently got a 318, but I plan to swap it with a higher performance 440 in the near future. The car's mostly going to be for street use and cruising around. Should I go for the Hotchkis TVS? Should I look to replace my shocks? Thanks in advance.

[7212Mopar]

If you get all the suspension parts from Hotchkis, it will cost more. Some parts from PST will work the same and cheaper. You should think about the steering box and brake system at the same time. A 440 will be heavier than a LA and many members here made it work with the big block

[Chryco Psycho]

Welcome to the site From Panama
I would not overthink this , you can get close to 1 g handling & better ride quaility keeping the stock suspension design & just upgrading the components with  simple upgrades will make a lot of difference , such as stiffened lower control arms , Borgeson steering box or Firm Feel stage 3 , Larger Torsion bars Larger Hollow sway bars , composite rear leaf springs with high quality shocks - Such as double adjustable QA1 & most importantly larger diameter rims & premium tires & premium brakes .
There are a number of threads on this site where people have done similar upgrades & @Brads70 took his Chall to an even more extreme level 

[dodj]

In my opinion, to get closer to 'modern car' feel, you need to add a few stiffeners to the car. Since a 440 is in the cards, Sub frame connectors at a minimum. Additionally, torque boxes are a good addition, and I think the US Car tool inner fender braces are very effective.

For the actual components, 1.0 to 1.1 torsion bars.
The biggest sway bars on offer.
Moog offset bushings for the UCA's so you can dial in a more positive caster alignment.
Adjustable shocks. I have the QA1 single adjustable, double adj. are better but cost more.
A stock type stage 3 steering box from Stear n Gear or Firm Feel or a Borgeson steering box.
For brakes, you need to decide what you want...manual, power, or hydraulic.

[Brads70]

In my opinion, to get closer to 'modern car' feel, you need to add a few stiffeners to the car. Since a 440 is in the cards, Sub frame connectors at a minimum. Additionally, torque boxes are a good addition, and I think the US Car tool inner fender braces are very effective.

For the actual components, 1.0 to 1.1 torsion bars.
The biggest sway bars on offer.
Moog offset bushings for the UCA's so you can dial in a more positive caster alignment.
Adjustable shocks. I have the QA1 single adjustable, double adj. are better but cost more.
A stock type stage 3 steering box from Stear n Gear or Firm Feel or a Borgeson steering box.
For brakes, you need to decide what you want...manual, power, or hydraulic.

  Great advice!  It's not just one part that matters , its the sum of all these parts working together. Hotchkis offers a good kit that covers most of the bases for most people, just be advised their leaf springs will drop the rear end and some may not like that.

[jordan]

The easiest way is to get the Hotchkis TVS.  It is a complete system made to work together.  You don't have to piece together a system and hope the parts work in unison.  To get it to work, you NEED to stiffen the chassis.  US Cartool kits are great.  Get the best adjustable shocks you can afford.  That way you can tune in the ride you want.  As the snowball keeps rolling, you will want larger stickier tires and wheels.  A level 3 or Borgson steering box will greatly help the loose steering.  To get it all to stop, Hydroboost brakes will make it feel modern.  Obviously larger calipers and rotors are mandatory.  With all the handling the car is going to be capable of, you will be falling out of your stock seats.  Put those on the list too. 

     I have done these mods to my car, except I used XV Motorsports Level 1 system.  I have made some changes with Hotchkis parts.  No matter what I have done to my car, I don't think it will ever be as good as a modern car.  It is very nice.  Handles great, with a smooth but firm ride quality.  But it is no Porsche beater.  The geometry from the 70s is still just that.  Mine still has a bit of understeer.  The steering is still not as precise as a new car, much less a new performance car.  Keep you expectations realistic.  It will be an optimized 50 year old car, but it is still a 50 year old car.  And you will love it!!

[HP2]

I'd agree with all of the above and also throw in that the folks at Firm Feel provide great products and have many decades on hands on mopar handling experience.

I'd also caution on using double adjustable shocks unless you like tinkering and are willing to keep records of your adjustments. I have heard stories on guys that get the adjustments so wrong that a car was practically undriveable.  If you are a set it and forget it type, its much better to got with a high quality non-adjustable shock.

[RUNCHARGER]

Lots of choice. I like something like what Dodj describes. That gives good results for reasonable $$$ and I like to keep the original 70's Mopar flavour.

[Dakota]

Welcome to the forum!   

You are where I was about 7 years ago.     All the posts I read around that time and since then would suggest subframe connectors are one of the better handling upgrade options on the "best bang for your buck" list, probably followed by a brake conversion(s) to disc at least on the front.   Besides the things listed above, there are other options such as stiffening the K-member and lower control arms, offset bushings for the upper control arms to give you better alignments that take advantage of modern tire design, a "sector support" bearing that will help reduce the potential for flex in the pitman arm, and adding a needle bearing kit to the idler arm.

There are exceptions, but all of these steps involve parts that seem to consistently cost at least $100 and usually more.   Between the cost and installation labor involved, you will have ample opportunity to spend lots of time and money on great upgrades that end up delaying when you might be able to drive your car (did I mention I'm on year 7 for mine?).  If you poke around through the "member restoration projects" and "what did you do with your e-Body today?" threads, you will see a huge range of work being done between major metal replacement, swaps with modern engines, letter perfect OE restorations, gradual upgrades to daily drivers, a few examples of fixes to "just get in on the road" beaters and everything in between that may give you some inspiration towards what you want and can afford.   

With all that said, feel free to post questions (we like pictures too) because I'm willing to bet someone here can offer you help and direction.   That has certainly been my experience.  My project would've permanently stalled years ago without these folks.

Lastly, to borrow a phrase I saw another member post once: Welcome to the asylum!

[cudabite]

Thank you all for your replies! I can provide a little more info about my car. It's got power steering and originally had manual drum brakes. A while back I converted the front to disc brakes from spare parts from a 70's a-body. I put in a new master cylinder and it's still manual (no power assist). I've also got 15x7 wheels with P235/60R-15 in the front and P255/60R-15 in the rear.

From the feedback I got and more research I'm coming up with a plan for what I want to do in the short term. I'm thinking of getting the hotchkis set of front and rear hollow sway bars, USCT subframe connector, hotchkis 1.1" torsion bars, moog offset UCA bushings and putting in QA1 single adjustable shocks all the way around.  It's for street driving and I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of person as well.  I'm mainly looking to get rid of the "feel" of the road that I currently have when driving around here on expressways and highways. California has some of the worst roadways in the nation, so I can really feel a lot of the imperfections when I drive it around. I'm thinking down the road in "phase 2" I can look into getting the the power steering box rebuilt and firmer, stiffening the lower control arms, reinforcing the k-frame, adding hotchkis rear leaf springs and torque boxes.  If I go for the hotchkis rear springs that lower the car by 1" can I just adjust the torsion bars in the front to get the correct stance, it'll just sit lower? Should I worry about my current tires not fitting anymore?

[RUNCHARGER]

Those tires will fit. I would guess your biggest issue right now is the KYB shocks, they sort of damp like a solid strut.

[soundcontrol]

This is what I decided on after making lots of research.

Body reinforcement
Kit from US Car Tool, subframe connectors, inner fender braces, Core support.

Suspension Parts from Firmfeel;
HD Street/Road Race/Track leaf springs
Suspension Rebuild Kit
Upper Control Arms
Front Sway Bar Kit 1-1/8   
Rear Sway Bar Kit 3/4" (AAR/TA design)     
1.00 Torsion Bar: HD/ Street app             
LCA reinforcement plates     
LCA Greasable Pivot Pins
Bilstein Shocks     
Selector support kit                         
Fast ratio pitman arm       
Fast ratio idler arm         
Firmfeel steering Stage II             
K-frame reinforcement plates

Drum spindles (used)

Brakes:
Wilwood front Kit 12.88 6 piston           
Wilwood rear kit                     
Hydraboost system
Wilwood Master Cylinder

[greentween]

I read your plan and would suggest when you do the torsion bars, it would be the correct time to do the lower control arm rebuild/stiffening. And also the pivot pin bushing and check the hole for it in the K frame. I would plan on re-welding the K frame hole as the original welds were very poor and usually they crack.

When ready for upper control arm, I would suggest QA1 arms instead of the offset bushings in the old arms. You get new ball joints too that way.

[GoodysGotaCuda]

This is what I decided on after making lots of research.

Body reinforcement
Kit from US Car Tool, subframe connectors, inner fender braces, Core support.

Suspension Parts from Firmfeel;
HD Street/Road Race/Track leaf springs
Suspension Rebuild Kit
Upper Control Arms
Front Sway Bar Kit 1-1/8   
Rear Sway Bar Kit 3/4" (AAR/TA design)     
1.00 Torsion Bar: HD/ Street app             
LCA reinforcement plates     
LCA Greasable Pivot Pins
Bilstein Shocks     
Selector support kit                         
Fast ratio pitman arm       
Fast ratio idler arm         
Firmfeel steering Stage II             
K-frame reinforcement plates

Drum spindles (used)

Brakes:
Wilwood front Kit 12.88 6 piston           
Wilwood rear kit                     
Hydraboost system
Wilwood Master Cylinder

I have Wilwoods on the front and back and don't think I'd buy the same setup again. I now dream of having sliding calipers...


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[MOPAR MITCH]

Along with all above from various replies, I continue to suggest larger TBs... after you install the small ones (~1.0 or 1.1)... you'll only ask yourself why you didn't go larger.  The 1.12 are a minimum... better at 1.15, 1.18, 1.20, 1.22... 1.24 (I've tried them all and settled at the largest being 1.24.... but that's also with stiffer leafs .. mono fiberglass 225#/inch with 5" unsprung arch).

Forget the 1.1/8  front sway bar... just get a 1.1/4" and be done with it.   The typical 3/4" rear bars are still too small... ask FF to make you a 1" rear bar matching the OE shape... or else maybe another supplier can provide that size... 3/4" is too small and our cars are still nose-heavy... warranting a larger rear bar... regardless SB or BB.

Get a good supporting driver's seat... high bolster at the hips and lower ribs is mandatory... sit in different seats until you find one that fits your body.   Seat tracks can be adapted to the factory seat floor brackets with flat bar stock.. drill required holes to adapt.

Also, get a smaller steering wheel.. at least a TUFF wheel (14" preferred and with leather not slippery vinyl), or better yet an aftermarket wheel of ~13-12"... will help quicken your steering.

Also.... relocate the battery into trunk (if that hasn't yet been mentioned).

The FF Stage II is OK... but you'll only wonder why you didn't get the III... so.. go with the III. (Everyone i know with a Stage II says they should've done III).   AND... do NOT use the Federal ps pump... ONLY use the SAGINAW with proper factory brackets.   The Federal is slow and will quit assisting when rapid LRLR movement is wanted and worse reduced assist at higher RPMs.

Last but not least... to protect your engine from oil starvation during increased cornering, breaking and acceleration (= FUN), make certain you have an improved OIL pan... horizontal baffles welded into the sump... or a Milodon road race pan (may likely need minor K-frame clearance done at the rear of the ps bracket... and passenger motor mount areas.. as I confirmed on my car).