MSD Ignition - help

[BillR1212]

Hi Team,

Not going to go into all the frustrations I've had with my Cuda these past few months as most of them are easily diagnosed and fixed. With that said I'm having issues where my car just dies at random times. I have a sniper EFI and the data logs show that it's losing RPM signal. Which is controlled by the MSD. Now the obvious things to ask is how is it wired etc, as they're sensitive to that. With that said, I've had 4 MSD 6al2's go bad over the 4 years since I installed their ignition, and the bad box is replaced, it works fine. Also, since the sniper was installed I decided to have the car completely re-wired bumper to bumper by a reputable shop. This was a expensive endeavor, and I asked them stay close with Holley and MSD to make sure it was done by the book as they replaced everything.

So to back up, the car never had this issue before, so the obvious thing when it died the first time, is that maybe a ground strap is loose. The car would start if you let it sit for 25 minutes or so, but would loose RPM signal shortly after starting. Since I moved away from the shop that was doing the initial wiring work, I found another shop in Tampa, that specializes in older cars. I asked them to check everything. They commented that the wiring looked good, Grounds were tight, and couldn't get the car to replicate the problem. I got it back, it drove fine for 3 weeks, and then yesterday it just died in the middle of the road. Needless to say when you're blocking traffic it gets frustrating pretty quick. I had to push a little ways to a empty parking lot where again it would start, but die out soon after. I'm at a loss, and have 0 confidence in the car right now. I always try to make it better when parts fail. The damn thing is pretty much new. I also carry a spare MSD6al and Sniper with me as they have both failed me on road trips. I'm not sure if a box would act like that if it's failing, or maybe it's a wiring/ground issue? idk. I didn't have my spare with me since it was a short trip, so I couldn't test it at that time... Anyways, open to suggestions. Maybe I ditch the MSD for something else? If the wires and grounds are good, I'm not sure where to start. The MSD distributer is locked out, but not sure that would change anything. I believe they did OHM tests last time to check resistance etc and everything seemed fine. They also cleaned the cap and points as well.

Thanks for listening, happy quarantine - wish I had my car to drive on these empty roads and cheap gas!!!

[Chryco Psycho]

I feel your pain , I have similar experiences with MSD
Kinda sounds like the pick in the dist is getting warm & dying 

[dodj]

I don't have an EFI, but does your logging monitor fuel pressure as well?

[BillR1212]

 

I feel your pain , I have similar experiences with MSD
Kinda sounds like the pick in the dist is getting warm & dying 

Yes that is a theory I have been thinking about. Being that I locked the distributer out I wonder if it's not phased correctly and the spark has to travel too far heating it up? But Then I'm confused why it will run for a week with no issues, then just shit the bed out of no where?

I don't have an EFI, but does your logging monitor fuel pressure as well?

I don't have a gauge. However I have no reason to suspect it's not getting fuel. When I crank it the logs won't read any RPM which is where I believe the issue is. When it cools off  I can see RPM signal on cranking and it will fire up. With that said, a fuel pressure gauge is a good idea. Just have not put it in yet.

[blown motor]

Well brother, I hear you! I have a 440 in my Charger with an MSD. Was on a run last summer and it was running good then all of a sudden it starts running rough. And then it got worse, took me four tries to pull away from a stop sign because it kept stalling. Wasn't sure if I was going to make it home but I did. Had supper and thought I'll try it again. Went to a friend's but it ran lousy. Then stopped at his son-in-law's and it ran lousy. Left his son-in-law's and it ran awesome. Ran great the rest of the summer. Got it out two weeks ago and went to town 12 miles away. Ran good on the way there but rough on the way home. Took it out two days ago and after 3 miles it was running so rough I thought I better get it home if I could. It stalled twice doing a three point turn. Then all of a sudden everything is great again. I swear it's the MSD box.
It has an MSD distributor as well but i have the original Mopar dizzy for it. I'm seriously thinking of going to a Rev-N-Nator with the original dizzy. I have that set-up in my 340 Challenger and have been very pleased with it.

[7212Mopar]

I am not clear from your post if you are also running MSD billet distributor with the MSD ignition box and Sniper EFI. You said the distributor is locked so I assume you are using the Sniper to control timing. If that is the case, you should have the MSD adjustable rotor in order to properly phased the rotor. It could be the screw got loosen and lost your phase setup.

Both Fitech and Sniper do not recommend using the stock distributor because of easily interference of the magnetic signal. Holley makes a distributor to pair with the Sniper system and they have video that shows how it is done. MSD would be the same except Holley has a setup tool with their distributor to make it fool proof to set the phasing.

I am running Fitech EFI, MSD 6AL, MSD billet distributor with adjustable rotor, MSD Blaster coil. Fitech control timing and runs good, easy to start, no stall. Running with an aggressive cam too. The only problem was I had the slip on connector to the coil terminal  burn off one time and engine died on the road. I changed to ring connector since and no more issue.

Check the Sniper log for clues and call them. Holley should be able to help. There are a lot of youtube videos and user groups that may help you.

[BillR1212]

I am not clear from your post if you are also running MSD billet distributor with the MSD ignition box and Sniper EFI. You said the distributor is locked so I assume you are using the Sniper to control timing. If that is the case, you should have the MSD adjustable rotor in order to properly phased the rotor. It could be the screw got loosen and lost your phase setup.

Both Fitech and Sniper do not recommend using the stock distributor because of easily interference of the magnetic signal. Holley makes a distributor to pair with the Sniper system and they have video that shows how it is done. MSD would be the same except Holley has a setup tool with their distributor to make it fool proof to set the phasing.

I am running Fitech EFI, MSD 6AL, MSD billet distributor with adjustable rotor, MSD Blaster coil. Fitech control timing and runs good, easy to start, no stall. Running with an aggressive cam too. The only problem was I had the slip on connector to the coil terminal  burn off one time and engine died on the road. I changed to ring connector since and no more issue.

Check the Sniper log for clues and call them. Holley should be able to help. There are a lot of youtube videos and user groups that may help you.

I have called sniper and MSD with my logs. Both confirmed it's a RPM signal drop and to check wiring. Which was double and tripled checked to be good. Which is why I'm at a loss and thinking of scraping the hardware since I've had issues with the CD box in the past. Considering maybe putting the hyper spark on it? I know they're pretty much the same company now, but I believe hyper spark is more plug and play with the sniper? I'm running the full MSD setup with pro billet distributer and coil. MSD CD Box is controlling the timing at the moment. If the distributer is phased correctly, and the wiring is good, then it leaves a HW issue somewhere. idk. MSD has told me in the past the 6al2 was fine when I sent it in for warranty. Which was odd because my car would not start with it, and wasn't until I bought a new MSD box that it worked. So my confidence in MSD is very low.

Well brother, I hear you! I have a 440 in my Charger with an MSD. Was on a run last summer and it was running good then all of a sudden it starts running rough. And then it got worse, took me four tries to pull away from a stop sign because it kept stalling. Wasn't sure if I was going to make it home but I did. Had supper and thought I'll try it again. Went to a friend's but it ran lousy. Then stopped at his son-in-law's and it ran lousy. Left his son-in-law's and it ran awesome. Ran great the rest of the summer. Got it out two weeks ago and went to town 12 miles away. Ran good on the way there but rough on the way home. Took it out two days ago and after 3 miles it was running so rough I thought I better get it home if I could. It stalled twice doing a three point turn. Then all of a sudden everything is great again. I swear it's the MSD box.
It has an MSD distributor as well but i have the original Mopar dizzy for it. I'm seriously thinking of going to a Rev-N-Nator with the original dizzy. I have that set-up in my 340 Challenger and have been very pleased with it.

I agree that it's been very frustrating moving away from the old school ignition and carb. I started out with hopes of having trouble free driving without having to tune the car every time the weather changes. However I seem to be going the wrong way! I keep telling myself that it will all come together in time haha. We will see.

[7212Mopar]

I would let the EFI control the timing instead of the ignition box. Taking the fuel and firing map together. You can adjust them together as necessary from the EFI handheld. The ignition box is only doing the high energy discharge and multisparks in the case of MSD. Try to trace the wiring and redo as necessary. Some people shield  wrap the distributor signal wiring with EMI wrap and ground the wrap to the engine. Never run the signal wiring parallel with the other wiring. It can be easily distorted, low energy signal.

I know member 70pumpkin had the Sniper and Hyperspark installed last year. PM him to see how it is running. The way Holley has it greatly simplified the install and less chance on error. You get rid of the MSD that you dont have confidence if you change to Hyperspark.

[Chryco Psycho]

Well I did it differently
I used an SDSEFI computer to control the EFI , It is aircraft rated , I wired in a crank trigger to eliminate the dist pick up & the SDS controlled all of the timing curve etc , there were 2 choices , you can use a 4 coil pack & fire it that way or you can use a single coil which we did & still used the dist to send the spark out to the correct cylinder , this worked flawlessly .
I refused to use a single MSD part

[BillR1212]

Well I did it differently
I used an SDSEFI computer to control the EFI , It is aircraft rated , I wired in a crank trigger to eliminate the dist pick up & the SDS controlled all of the timing curve etc , there were 2 choices , you can use a 4 coil pack & fire it that way or you can use a single coil which we did & still used the dist to send the spark out to the correct cylinder , this worked flawlessly .
I refused to use a single MSD part

Still waiting to hear back. I don't think they even starting looking at it until yesterday. They're going to re-check wire routing etc since another shop in NC did all the work on the rewire. At least with my messy wire job I knew where everything was routed and how. Now that I paid to have it all done, I'm not sure what is what anymore. Although I was hoping that it would be done right and it would just work. Oh well. I also ordered wilwood brakes and slotted rotors in hopes that someday it runs well enough to need to stop the car 

I did ask to re-route the RPM etc so the sniper controls the timing. On the tune update, it was deemed that my trans kept failing because of my 3300 stall converter. Since I drive a ton on the highway it was creating a lot of heat. They put a 2700 stall in there now. I didn't get a chance to drive it much, but you can feel the difference between them on acceleration....for the worse obviously. Completely changes how the car drives. Some of that is likely attributed to the sniper learning fuel maps for one, and now it's having trouble adjusting to the changes. I will have to have it re-learn when I can get it running long enough.

[BillR1212]

Just to close the loop here for now, before I fire up another brake booster thread. Got the car back finally about 5 days ago. So far so good. He spent a tremendous amount of time checking and re-checking wires, grounds, RFI, etc. Car runs better than ever with no voltage loss etc. I can't say what exactly was wrong. We had multiple 45 minute conversations in the evenings when he was updating me. We did end up putting my spare sniper on as a last ditch effort, and that seemed to have fixed it for now. Couldn't tell you why that worked (he could, but the technical electronic terms were above my head), but that along with the extra grounds seemed to be the ticket so far. Needless to say, I'm frustrated that with all the time and money I've spent on the car to make it right that I'm having these issues. Especially with new wiring harness (some of the issues is the fault of the original shop that did the install, that the new place is fixing). Regardless, would really make me think twice before ever using a EFI on these old cars again. My opinion is some may work great, most are the installers fault, and there are times where something very small might go bad, causing it to act up, which means you will spend dozens of hours chasing ghosts, just to figure out it's the sniper all along. I believe putting the ECU and everything in one unit means that you're sacrificing ruggedness for simplicity.

I was very close to dropping off my 750 double pumper and a low pressure fuel pump and calling it a day. Lets see how long I can go this time. Hopefully years. I will say Holley Tech is great to work with. So if you're dead set on making the switch, know that Holley support stands behind their product. I will be shipping the sniper back to them for testing. Hoping they find something wrong. My mechanic said it would work, but when it got hot is when it would start acting up. I don't think Holley can test for that?

Posted a pic from my drive to lunch today with a beautiful boss 302. breaking in a fresh rebuild.

[JS29]